CAD Forum

[uraniumtiger]

Hi Folks,

I have a question. When I move a drawing within a file I find that many of the associated dimensions get screwed up - they are out of place and I need to spend time putting them all in the right place. Some of my drawings have many dimensions and I have to spend considerable time to fix the dimensions whenever I move a drawing. Is there a way to prevent this problem? I am using ProgeCAD 2008.

Vincent

[caddit]

Hi,


Associative dimensioning can be a bit tricky concept. But as I know it, this has been improved in the current release (progeCAD 2009).

It might be worth your while to try the latest version. Also, progeCAD behaviour often emulates Autodesk AutoCAD. Does the associativity you assign work in AutoCAD?
_________________
CAD Software Support
progeCAD Software Asia Pacific
Alibre Australia, PTC and MathCAD

[uraniumtiger]

First of all, thanks for responding to my question. I did not reply to your response for several days because for some reason the system did not inform me (through my email) that a response had come in and so I assumed no one had answered.

To respond to your question: You wrote: "Does the associativity you assign work in AutoCAD?" You also wrote that associate dimensioning can be tricky. I am not sure what you mean by "associative dimensioning." I guess you simply mean the linear vertical and horizontal (and some other) dimensions that I am using with ProgeCAD.

Regarding your question about whether or not the "associativity [I] assign work[s] in AutoCAD": Again, I am not sure what you mean. I guess you mean: do I have the same problem in AutoCAD? (With the problem being that when I move an item with dimensions some of the dimensions get screwed up/moved around during the move.) The answer to that question is that I don't know because I don't have access to AutoCAD at this time. I used AutoCAD years ago and I do not remember any such problem.

You suggested I try the 2009 version of ProgeCAD and I may do that. (I guess the free version is only free for a limited time, though.)

Sincerely,

Vincent

[iCADsales.com]

The dimensions, in order to work with the resizing of entities, or the movement of the same, or itself, require that you include both end points of your extension lines as they lay on the object being redefined. Now often extension lines don't extend all the way to the object (or they look like they don't). If you were to select the object, and zoom until you couldn't zoom anymore on the end point of when the extension and dimension lines intersect, you would see a single, solitary point (point: no width, no height, and no length defined only with a dot to help humans "see" the point). You simply must include these or the dimension will not change and the dimension text won't either.

If you stretch the object, and the dimension, you would think the dimension text would update. There are several reasons it may not concerning system variables (dimaso is one that comes to mind, turn associative dimensions on and off), exploding of dimensions, or simply typing in a value rather than letting the dimension apply it's own default value. Hope this helps a little to understand dimensioning... There is a LOT more out there on the subject. You can start in our progeWIKI to learn more at http://www.icadsales.com/index.pl?id=20266
Good luck and don't hesitate to ask here, the iCADsales.com forum, or the progeSOFT Trial forum...

[uraniumtiger]

Hi,

Thanks for your response. I am not resizing or stretching the objects. I am just moving them. I will experiment with what you wrote about making sure to include the endpoints of the extension lines of the dimensions. I may have a follow up question.

Thanks again,

Vincent

[caddit]

Hi uraniumtiger,

Did you see anything similar to your question here? http://www.caddit.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=230

It seems perhaps related, although I am still not really sure what is meant by "move a drawing within a file" (from your first post).
_________________
CAD Software Support
progeCAD Software Asia Pacific
Alibre Australia, PTC and MathCAD

[uraniumtiger]

Hi,

I reviewed the series of email exchanges in Yarrateck's post which you referred me to and I think he is talking about something similar to what I am speaking of. However, he seems to be talking about moving just one dimension or a few at a time. I am speaking of moving an entire drawing with many dimensions.

You wrote that you are not sure what I mean by "moving a drawing within a file." I will try to clarify this. I am drawing an object - it is basically a short square tube with a tapered end on one side and a closed end on the other side. It has various holes in it and some protrusions inside it (pieces of material which extend inward inside the tube shape). I have to show all this clearly and so I have six different views of this product (all on one page). Each view has many dimensions attached. I needed to move several of these views within the page. One reason why I needed to move them is that it was just getting too cluttered with all the dimensions and there was not enough room between the images (views).

Thus, I selected one entire view (image) by using the "window" function from the zoom toolbar (or "view" then "zoom" then "window"). Thus all of the image plus all of its dimensions (including the points at the ends of the dimension lines) should have been and appeared to be properly selected. I then type "move" and I put in initial and final reference coordinates (for "base point" and "displacement point"). Then what happens is that the entire image (again, by "image" I mean a single view of the object/product I am drawing, and there are a total of six views on this same page/file) moves to the position I dictated in the reference coordinates I entered EXCEPT that some of the dimensions are out of place. Those dimensions move somewhat but not all the way to where they should be. This is what I think Yarratech meant when he said his dimensions got all "stuffed" and that they "move sideways." When I move my image some of the dimensions, instead of being in their proper places with respect to the rest of the image they are associated with, they are all bunched together in one portion of the image.

It seems to me that you could easily replicate this problem. Just draw a rectangle or some other shape, add 15 or more linear vertical and horizontal dimensions to it, and then move the entire image within the page using the "move" command. If your program works as mine does then I think some of the dimensions will end up in the right places and others will be in the wrong places. (Again, I am using ProgeCAD 2008.)

The problem appears to me to be a consistent one.

I hope I have clarified what I am speaking of.

Best regards,

Uraniumtiger

[caddit]

Hello uraniumtiger,


I believe this may have been addressed with progeCAD 2009. I have tested moving "entire drawings" with multiple dimensions using the latest version ( 9.0.28 ) and nothing seemed "left behind".

Substantial improvements are made in each new major version of progeCAD software.
_________________
CAD Software Support
progeCAD Software Asia Pacific
Alibre Australia, PTC and MathCAD

[uraniumtiger]

Hi folks,

l previously emailed you about a problem wherein when I move a drawing on a page some of the dimensions get screwed up; the points at the end of the extension lines move appropriately but the rest of the dimension including the text gets all out of place. I exchanged several emails with others here but you did not seem to have experienced the problem I was speaking of.

I am still struggling with this problem. It comes up repeatedly and it unnecessarily wastes my time as I create and change drawings. It seems to me to be a significant bug in the program.

The last bit of advice given to me was to use ProgeCAD 2009 (I had been using the 2008 version).

I am now using the 2009 version and I have the same problem. Also, I (inadvertently) downloaded a 30 day trial copy of the 2010 version of ProgeCAD and I found that the same problem occurred with that program as well.

I have devised a simple test which you can do to duplicate the problem. (The problem seems to manifest itself in a variety of ways. This tests produces just one manifestation of the problem. One example of another manifestation of the problem is that when I change the override text in a dimension so that the new text is longer than the previous text sometimes that will cause the dimension to move out of place [the movement of the text is not just what is needed to make room for the new, larger text].)

Here is how you can conduct the test:

1) Using ProgeCAD 2009, draw a vertical line, about 100 units long.
2) Add a linear vertical dimension to the line. Use ESNAP (snapping the ends of the dimension extension lines to the endpoints of the 100 unit long vertical line).
3) Move the dimension text so that it is about 50 units to the right of the 100 unit long vertical line (leave the endpoints of the extension lines in their original positions, snapped onto the endpoints of the 100 unit long vertical line).
4) Next move the dimension text so that it is about 25 units above the top extension line (so now the dimension text is about 50 units to the right of the top of the 100 unit tall vertical line and about 25 units above that point).
5) Select the dimension.
6) Go to "Modify" in the menu and then "Properties".
7) Click on the "Dimension Settings" button.
8 ) Click on the "Text" tab.
9) In the section titled "Text Alignment" check the boxes labeled "Draw inside text horizontally" and "Draw outside text horizontally."
10) Click "OK" and then "OK" again.
11) Now select both the dimension and the 100 unit long vertical line.
12) Now drag both items together about 25 units to the right. Keeping both items selected, drag both items about 25 units to the left. Keep repeating this process.
13) As you keep repeating this (dragging the dimension and 100 unit long vertical line to the right and then back to the left) you will see that the dimension extension lines get shorter and shorter with each move until they eventually start extending to the left of the 100 unit tall vertical line (instead of to the right as they originally did) and then as you keep moving the items back and forth they continue to extend farther and farther to the left of the 100 unit tall vertical line.
14) Also, you will notice that the dimension text moves higher and higher with each move until it will eventually extend out of the picture so that it is no longer visible (unless you zoom out).

Again, this is just one manifestation of the problem. However, this test should provide enough information to enable you to see that there is an issue here which needs to be addressed.

On the other hand, maybe there is something that I am somehow overlooking. Maybe there is some setting or something that I can change that you know of that will correct this problem. If so please let me know about it.

Best regards,

Vincent

[cad-assist]

I tried following your rather complex sequence of tasks to reproduce your problem, but I couldn't follow it all, possibly because I am using ProgeCAD 2010 and its commands differ. I don't know what 2009 was like. There was no sign of anything like you describe. But why would you want to keep dragging stuff right and left anyway?

It is normal for peculiar things to happen (in AutoCAD also) if you make the dimension line position so close to the objects that it is nearly the same or less than the extension line offset value.

My main comment is that I prefer to normally dimension in PaperSpace, and recommend my students to do so, mainly because that overcomes any issues about figuring out what dimscale factor to use for the plot scale. Its only downside is that the dims so placed will not move with the MS objects if you move the Modelspace objects within the viewport. I normally lock the VP scale (which also locks pan as well) so that is a rare thing.

Dimensions are so easy to place that I think it is a waste of effort fiddling with dragging them around. Just delete and re-place.

Using PaperSpace and putting dims there should also avoid any need to move completed chunks of drawing around. Just show each in a viewport and locate those on the paper as desired. When drawing object-groups in ModelSpace, draw them well separated to simplify selecting them for viewports. Don't think about how the parts should be spaced relative to each other in modelspace. It doesn't matter in the least what it all looks like there.

[uraniumtiger]

Dear Cad-Assist:

First of all, thanks for responding to my 2-17-10 post.

You wrote in your 3-29-10 post that you could not follow all of the directions I provided in my 2-17-10 post to reproduce a manifestation of the problem I am dealing with relating to dimensions. You said that it might be because you are using ProgeCAD 2010 while I am using ProgeCAD 2009. I am unable to use ProgeCAD 2010 at this point without purchasing it because I previously downloaded a 30 day trial version. Thus, I don’t remember and cannot say if the menu options are significantly different relating to the list of steps I provided to reproduce the problem. However, most of the steps I provided are simple and generic and only steps 6-10 (which cover checking the two boxes which relate to text alignment), it seems to me, could possibly cause any confusion to someone because they are using ProgeCAD 2010 vs. ProgeCAD 2009. Even if that is an issue, however, it should not be hard to find the similar command in ProgeCAD 2010 as the one described for ProgeCAD 2009. Based on the little bit that I used ProgeCAD 2010 it seems to me that the two programs are not all that different. I urge you to try to go through the steps I listed so that you can actually see a manifestation of the problem I am speaking of.

You also wrote “Why would you want to keep dragging stuff right and left anyway?” The answer is: I wouldn’t. The only reason why I spent the time to come up with and provide this particular test was so that you could experience for yourself a manifestation of the problem I am speaking of, namely, dimensions taking on a mind of their own and moving around without being intentionally moved or directed to move by me. I seem to be frequently struggling with the dimensions. As I discussed in my 2-17-10 post, there are a number of different circumstances in which the dimensions move about on their own, causing me to waste a lot of time correcting them. For example, they move out of place on their own when I move or copy and paste a drawing or part of a drawing (which has dimensions) or sometimes when I change the override text. However, my previous attempts to explain this to you folks have not resulted in you understanding what I was speaking of. Thus, I came up with this list of steps so that you could recreate a manifestation of the problem and see for yourself that there is a real issue here, a significant bug in the program (as far as I can tell).

You wrote:

“It is normal for peculiar things to happen (in AutoCAD also) if you make the dimension line position so close to the objects that it is nearly the same or less than the extension line offset value.”

That is not the cause of the problem. The problem manifests itself whether or not the dimensions are close to the objects.

You also wrote that you recommend dimensioning in paperspace. I am not very clear on the difference between paperspace and modelpace. However, I did set up a new page in paperspace and performed the exact same test as the one I described with 14 steps in my 2-17-10 post and the exact same problem recurred.

You also wrote:

“Dimensions are so easy to place that I think it is a waste of effort fiddling with dragging them around. Just delete and re-place.”

This seems to me like a very inappropriate comment. Basically, what you suggested there is what I am doing. I am frequently recreating (or correcting) dimensions which have moved on their own and it really wastes my time. Your comment that dimensions are so easy to place that I should just delete and replace them reflects a lack of understanding of how much time can be involved in creating a relatively complicated and detailed drawing with many dimensions, such as some of mine. Some of my drawings have numerous dimensions of various types. In many cases several adjustments need to be made to the parameters of each or many of the dimensions I use. (For example with many of my dimensions I need to check the text alignment boxes discussed in the test with the 14 steps provided in my 2-17-10 post; I also often need to adjust the text size, arrowhead size, linetype and other dimension parameters. [There may be a way to set the default values for some of these parameters and perhaps that would save some time in some cases but even if that is so the process of always correcting or recreating these dimensions when they move on their own would still be taking too much of my time]). I also frequently use override text (which would need to be added again each time the dimension was recreated). Also the placement of each dimension in relation to other dimensions often needs to be carefully done so that I am providing as much information as possible in a limited space, without making the drawing too large and without the dimensions blocking each other out. Thus I would strongly disagree with your assertion that it is easy and quick to replace dimensions and so I should just delete and replace them.

In the last paragraph of your 3-29-10 post you said I should use paperspace and add the dimensions there and that I should use viewports to have different views of the object. First of all, as I mentioned above, I tried adding dimensions in paperspace and the same problem occurred. Second, I am not sure exactly what you mean and what is involved in paperspace vs. modelspace and the use of viewports. I spent a little time trying to learn about this before responding to your post but I don’t have a clear idea of the difference between modelspace and paperspace. You may be speaking of creating a three dimensional object and then using viewports to see the same single object from different perspectives without redrawing the object from the other perspectives. I believe that Autocad has functions like that. I have never used such features in any program and that is not the way I have been drawing for my present project (and it is not the way I have drawn objects in the past). It actually is something that I would be interested in learning about but I also must be able to do basic two dimensional drawings of three dimensional objects (including such drawings for each view of the object I am dealing with) without all the hassle I am running into regarding dimensions.

I am evaluating this copy of ProgeCAD 2009 and was planning to purchase the real version if I liked it if and when my project starts making money. However, I cannot see investing hundreds of dollars in software which has such an obvious glitch as the one I am dealing with (although I think I am basically satisfied with ProgeCAD in other respects).

I urge you to take a little time and try to follow the 14 steps presented in my 2-17-10 post. I think that what you are doing right now is simply making assumptions about the problem I am speaking of (since you have not seen the problem for yourself), apparently assuming that it is at most a minor, insignificant idiosyncrasy in ProgeCAD which I have stumbled on which I should just ignore and work around. By contrast, as far as I can tell the problem constitutes a significant bug in the program which causes me to unnecessarily waste significant amounts of my time. I feel we are actually kind of talking past each other and not really understanding each other and that this is likely to continue to be the case until you can actually see a manifestation of the problem for yourself. That is why I presented that test with the 14 steps in the 2-17-10 post. I think that if you don’t see (at least one manifestation of) the problem for yourself it is hard for us to communicate meaningfully about it.

Sincerely,

Uraniumtiger